Sports Culture with Gameface Lee

Transcript

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Thank you for tuning in to another episode of the culture.

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This your host, Jeff. Man is not with us today, or at least not yet. He's a little busy right now. But I got my game face on.

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Because we have a special guest today. This gentleman is a creator. He is the co host of the baseline NBA podcast. He is a producer. He is a media correspondent. He is a sports analyst. He is a blogger, and so much more. Thank you for coming on Mr. Cow Game Face Lee.

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I appreciate you, brother you putting on the Game face, you know, saying I feel like I'm the only person who tends to do that. But I I certainly appreciate it. I'm very humbled and honored to be able to join you and, and your partner and who I know will be hopping on you know, soon enough and everything but yeah, man.

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The baseline NBA podcast, you know, big shout outs to co hosts co creator, my man. Warren Shaw, you know, and yeah, man, let's let's let's chop it up, man.

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Looking forward to it.

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And there he is. What's up, man? How you doing that's going over

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a long day. Well.

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You want to talk to people you

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was at a union meeting is where to start a union gaming so early in the year. And they were talking about like, you know, pandemic and all. But calm has been troubling. You might need to make some cutbacks.

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Yeah, you're trying to fire us.

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Okay. All right. I'm gonna leave earlier than that. And see, they're gonna bring that on the agenda. Like, yeah, let me just stick around for this part.

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Let's make sure everything's wrong. No, I mean, that's all

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Now was it now? I'm not saying your company is racist.

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But was it only colored people in this meeting?

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I'm a social worker, and I'm sorry, take it.

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Hard to be social, when it's hard to be social when the pot stays playing.

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Look, man, I rather be anti social and employers and social and on a food line. I'm cool. I can't be a social worker and come on, come down to two weeks later getting stamped from the same place. It's like, Nah, you think life so we're gonna see how that goes. I think it'd be fine.

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But Mr. Lee, I got some questions for you. Before we get into all of that, can you tell the audience a little bit about yourself?

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Um, yeah, absolutely, man. So much like you guys, I'm up here in New Jersey. As far as my, my day to day, you know, as much as I love doing podcasting, and I enjoy talking about sports, I grew up on sports. You know, ever since I was a kid, you know, born in Brooklyn. Mom moved us, my family down to Florida, went to high school in Florida. Then I left spent a couple of years in school in West Virginia, headed back down to Florida, and then eventually made my way back up up here up north, you know, because that's, that's just how I've been, it's who I am. You know, I've always been someone who's, you know, figured out a way to like, to be able to discuss and bring to light the things I've always enjoyed, which has been, you know, the culture, the culture of hip hop, because I grew up in a culture of hip hop. And also my love for my affinity for sports. And I've been doing this for so long. And so, you know, when I moved up here to New Jersey, my best friend, Warren Shaw, if you catch him on on Twitter, or on Instagram, you can catch my show sports, NBA or Shaw sports. And, you know, we've always we grew up on sports, played basketball, played baseball, and, you know, so eventually, it just kind of came to fruition, you know, our desire to want to talk about, you know, sports, and do it in a meaningful manner. To be able to, you know, just have great conversations kind of like open up dialogue, not start, you know, is not start controversy, but attack controversial topics if need be, right, open up a platform, where there are other guys out there other creators, content creators podcasters, who see us two brothers, you know, who are coming at this in a professional yet meaningful way where we can fuse the culture, no fad, no gimmicks, no nothing.

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But allow people to appreciate that, you know, one can thrive without the other, you know, our upbringing, our perspective what we Learn what we gain, you know, what we understand what we bring to the table enables people to feel like they can identify with us, and how we see the landscape of the NBA, and how we feel like the culture in itself has an influence on what the NBA is.

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And so, you know, when you think of the baseline NBA podcast, you know, first and foremost, that's, that's who we are, you know, we are an embodiment of what we feel like, has been, you know, the heartbeat and the pulse of why the NBA continues to thrive and be, you know, a really recognizable and sustainable global brand. And so what I mean by sustainable, I mean, while the NFL is a mono, you know, it's like, you know, it's like a monolith, essentially. And then somewhere, sits between NFL and a baseball, basketball, it's like, right there. It's right there, it's identifiable. And it balances out a lot of what we respect and desire, and also help to elevate conversations when you talk about athletes who are out there who are doing phenomenal things, who are putting the sport in a meaningful light, and at the same time, also establishing a level of pay. As an athlete, I'm out here making your brand a lot of money. Right. So I think it's only fair, that you look at us with the same level that you do that you look at these owners, because the owners don't make that money unless we're out there performing and playing and being the stars that we are. And I think that they help reset the table with the way that we look at, you know, collective bargaining agreements, they look at the way that, you know, we're now acknowledging athletes, if you could probably say, more than anything, basketball has found a way to redefine the formula of how athletes in the MLB and in the NFL, have to brand themselves to be on equal playing on an equal footing, to have honest conversations about making sure that they're being not just properly compensated, but properly recognized, you know, so that the brand and the sport continues to grow. And so that's why, you know, we've been doing this, this our show for, you know, for 10 years, we've interviewed other analysts, we've interviewed players, we've interviewed other people in the social media spaces that have elevated, you know, conversations about the game of basketball, who have also elevated the conversations about the about the culture of hip hop and its influence on basketball.

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So we've gone through, like the gamut in our years of doing the podcast, and it's been a great experience, it's been an awesome ride, to see where we first started all the way back in 2012. To where we are now, essentially 2023 with the way that the podcast is looked at and has grown.

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Yeah, I mean, everything you said everything, you know, basically, I feel makes you the perfect guest on the show.

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Because that's basically our story as well. And anytime I can fuse, you know, the culture with sports, I think that's the perfect combination. Real quick, I want to touch I don't want to spend too much time on this. But I want to touch on the Damar Hamblin situation, you know, the bill safety who collapsed after the blunt impact to the chest a couple a couple of nights ago.

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You know, I saw a lot of people online suggesting that it may be Myrna vaccine related. And I don't know if there was any correlation between COVID vaccines and, and cardiac incidents. I don't know about that. But this whole incident just reinforces my belief that I will not let my son play football. I don't know how you gentlemen feel about it. You know, I mean, unless he's like, passionately in love with it.

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I'm gonna steer him away from it. I just wanted to get your thoughts on that real quick, but the whole situation,

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and you want to jump in first.

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If someone played football and played football, what we all experienced is something that no one's ever seen on the football field.

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Reasonable, it the thing that I have an issue with, he started off well, like, this is how conspiracy theories start. Like, he took the vaccine and all of a sudden he almost died. Like, like people have to stop that.

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Like it's just, it's not a moment where you need to push any other kind of agenda.

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Seriously. What happened to him was like a 10,000,001 kind of thing. Everything that I've read from professional people, specifically, cardiologists basically said that the moment of impact was the moment that his electric signal was at its peak, and that calls this incident to happen, and it happens fairly often. It happens when you deal with sports with blunt trauma at chess. You don't want to send the play full Ball, but it's not out of the like likelihood that he will get hit in the chest with a baseball.

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Haven't met with this. The first time this has happened, though was that I remember sitting there watching the game and I'm watching him and I think I was talking to my dad. He's like, I think he had a concussion. And I looked at him said, I don't think that's a good question. So I think he died. That was my initial thought. Don't say things like that. Right. And because like, because we've seen what two or Coronavirus or three concussions this year, and each way he's reacted differently, he froze up he did to stumble things, and he was woozy. And we've seen We've seen that happen a lot in sports guys get concussed. They move. He stood up, he fell flat down. It wasn't like he like he was like trying to get it together something else like that he just dropped.

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And I'm like, That's unusual.

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And then the whole delight again, to was out there. They rolled the crowd out there.

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Getting minutes later, they were playing. It kept dragging. I'm like, No, this is something serious. They keep cutting away, they're still in the field. Then they're saying like they had to administer CPR. Like, oh, this is a real thing. The thing about football players, anything else like that. It's a very fast, violent sport. The price you pay for this level of success, not fame, always. But just success is that there's a toll that is going to take in your body.

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Always. No one comes out of it, quote unquote, alive. You have to play the game without fear.

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That you know you're going to get hurt people tear things, they break things going. So for that reason why they had to stop that game. Why came up that way?

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Like you said, when you looked at those players faces you didn't see concern, you saw fear. They were terrified. There was nothing that the NFL could have done to get them back on that field, it would have been impossible, that they just watched their own teammate die.

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They watch them give him CPR to try to revive him. Like you see Josh Allen tearing up all these guys are crying left and right.

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And they deal with pain and injuries every single day. This was different. I'm glad that the Senate has shown improvement, I would definitely assume that it was a rare incident. They did CPR immediately. The people who should be applauded are the health professionals that did their job to make sure that they got him to a place like even in critical condition. At least you know that he's breathing, he has a pulse. And they're still doing everything that they can or like, like people worry about, like fantasy concerns and stuff like that. Like that's a young man's life right there. And from everything that we've seen over the news reports for the past few days, excellent human being you see all these people donate to a toy charity drive. I mean, how many people do you know like, I'm trying to start a GoFundMe for forget toys for the children of my community. That's it. That's the kind of person he is. It's a very, very, very rare incident. As of right now, I hope that it does not become tragic. I want him to go on and live a healthy and productive life. Knowing Him because He loved us so much. It wouldn't surprise me if he tries to make a comeback. I don't know how that's going to be. I think he's going to pull out this fine. I think just an incident that we all saw. Where it was just we avoided a tragedy is the most important thing. We avoided seeing a live death on an NFL field. I think the NFL is trying to come around and pull together and just show like it is a part of sport. But yes, we do care.

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And his first question when he woke up supposedly was you know, did we win? So he still had that you know, that competitive spirit upon waking up from you know, a coma or whatever it was getting phased your take on that.

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Yeah, so I don't want to be, you know, too, too verbose. We it, you brought some some awesome points. The only thing that I probably want to say about this and look, I completely understand and respect anyone's trepidation to wanting their child to play physical sports, like football, like rugby. Like anything that requires physical contact with another human being in a in a violent fashion and a form that you typically see watching football. Okay. I will say this though. Because I think that's going to be a personal choice when you see how your, you know, your your child or whoever it is that you are supporting, to play that sport, how they respond and how they act and how they carry themselves in playing that sport and and desire and their love for playing that sport. That's a conversation that you're probably going to have because it's going to be hard pressed to tell someone that they shouldn't do it simply because they think that there is that fear factor of you know, being hurt. What I will say is is that and I think this highlights a little bit more to the point of where we are as a society. I was just more so disturbed about how we were covering What was going on?

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I think we have gotten so immersed in the quote unquote, sports entertainment aspect of things, that we take situations like what was happening there at that moment in time and make this into a dramatization. That kind of, you know, contorts the what what should have been the most prevalent thing at that moment in time, which was Damar Hamlin safety, his health and his well being the fact that we had to keep bouncing back and forth. And, you know, I'm hearing, you know, really just air coming out of Joe Buck every single time and then, you know, panning to Lisa and no disrespect to the people who are covering this. But at this point, this is no longer TV, this now should become a journalistic moment where you're simply reporting the news, and out of respect for the people who are closest to this, right, not just the players, the organization, but the family members, because remember, his family was there witnessing this as it was happening, we have to start being mindful of the basic human things that allow us to show the proper support that is required in priority of the moment. And I just felt like that part of it tends to get lost. Because every because now what you start doing is you start injecting to your point and all of these hypotheses and theories about what went down, people going all over the place, rather than just being simply centered, and first making sure that he's okay. Right, which people now later really, as you say, oh, you know, this is the reason why, you know, the NFL gets it wrong. When it comes to concussions, this wasn't a concussion. Right? This wasn't this wasn't a CTE incident. This is a cardiac arrest. Right? So before we start going out there and start lambasting the NFL, you tell me, where the NFL, the NHL, the NBA, or MLB? would have people there ready in response to players who have a cardiac arrest? How do you prepare for that, you can't prepare for that, you know, I'm saying you can have doctors, but you still have to do the necessary things in order to first determine it.

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That was what was going on. And so what I'm saying is, as you're doing that, while still putting television, to faces and, and putting microphones to people's faces, and people are just running all over the place on social media, on Twitter, and all sorts of things. It's like, it's getting to the point where now, we're allowing way too many voices to speak to what really should have been the most important and prevalent thing, which is his well being first, then you can start having the conversations after you have all of the facts, we no longer gather the facts, we have to be the first ones and quick to start putting in situations. And that was my only disappointment with what was going on. It almost felt like we got lost in the drama to zation of a player who got injured, who got hurt, who basically was on life support who was fighting for his life. And, you know, like that, that that, to me is the misfortune because we can be better than that, you know, we can be better than that. And when I say that, I don't mean like, it shouldn't just only be the NFL. But I just think all of us together, we can be better than that. Because that would have enabled a better conversation to that.

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And the network was just dragging in. I know, you know, this is not only a capitalistic country, but a very capitalistic society that we're in. And they just kept throwing mics in front of people, they had nothing to say like, Alright, let's take this to the send it to this guy, what do you want me to say?

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Alright, let's go to a commercial break. And they, you know, because and I know the league and the network's you know, there's trying to figure out what to because they want to you know, they still want to get those ad revenues. You don't I mean, they trying to get paid still. And they're trying to keep eyeballs on the channel so that they at least can get paid for these ads, even though they don't have a game on. And I found it crazy how quick I saw people making videos like you know, and said, I saw these doctors already posting YouTube videos, like within minutes.

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This is what I think happened.

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You know, he went into cardiac arrest because this is and I'm like yo, Matt quick with these videos. And in

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all fairness, you can I'll say this real quick job, in all fairness to because I know people, you know, want to get on the NFL. I'm not defending the NFL. I quite frankly thought that the NFL immediately the moment that you have an ambulance running out on the field. You should not be playing this game. Nothing should be played. That game should have been called point blank period full stop. You don't even have to look at the players faces. What I'm saying is let me know where you think in the right frame of mind, let's just even use it from a business perspective. You mean to tell me that after what these players saw, or what these players had experienced, right, you didn't send them to their locker rooms, they all stayed out on the field, through the whole situation, you mean to tell me that they're going to be in their right frame of mind to go out there and perform and play football, meaningful football, that is not going to happen? I don't care. I don't care what who you are, how you are. That kind of what you're seeing what you're witnessing there. If somebody who's not even there who's just watching it on the television, you see people basically, you know, like, bawling out crying, right.

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They don't even know handling, but they're bawling out crying, praying for this guy to be, you know, to be okay to be safe. If they're not okay with what they see what makes you think that people who are physically there at that moment in time going to be okay about doing anything other than making sure that their teammate, or their fellow colleagues, their brother in law that they play with on in the NFL is going to be 100%. Okay, there are just times where I just feel like, Yo, man, we got to hit the pause button. And reprioritize you don't say in the mindset about what we're trying to get, what we're trying to execute and what we're trying to show people. And I think that was where the NFL got it wrong, like the moment that an ambulance has to come out there, you know, yeah, you cart guys out if they, you know, they break their foot, break their ankle, I mean, even with the way that the NFL is set up nowadays, I even wonder sometimes with how guys are getting injured, and how guys are getting hurt, if you really think that makes sense that they should continue to play games, knowing things like that occur. But something like where a guy is basically dead. Like, you know, I'm saying he's flatline, literally, and you got to revive him, You mean to tell me that we're going to still play a football game after that, you know, I'm saying like, come on, growing up in in, in our days, you know where I'm coming from, in a neighborhood where you play out there on the, you know, on the driveways, or out there on the street, right?

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Your kid goes out and skins his knee, right? And the parents have got to run out and come get their child and then take them off to the ambulance, you don't see us playing anymore. Most of us either go into that hospital, right? Or we're hanging out by the student talking about it and trying to like get it out of our mind so that we can actually conjure up your own stand of strength to come out there and want to play again. But nine times out of 10 we're still hoping that our boys still doing okay. And I don't see where that's any different when you're growing up. You know, I'm saying playing in any game that you're supposed to love that you would think that the players and the guys who are part of your brotherhood are still would feel and be aligned in that same kind of capacity.

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Well said and I think the one positive is his GoFundMe toy drive. Yes. You know, he was trying to collect something like$2,500 and last I checked there was up to like 5 million, it's probably higher than that now.

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But that was like this morning seven, 7 million Jesus. So he's, you know, that's that's the one positive. But alright, man, let's let's get into another topic. It's one that Mr.

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Gameface covers closely. The NBA. My first question is, why is the NBA, the one league that's more in tune with the culture, you know, than any other sports league? In the world? You know, NBA has historically been the most progressive sports entity in the world. You know, had the first black team owners. We talk about Robert Johnson, and then he passed it on to Michael Jordan, with the Bobcats. You know, we have the female coaches now in the NBA. So let's talk about that. Yeah, I mean, you know, because we know historically, baseball is considered racist.

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You know, hockey is all white.

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You know what I'm saying soccer is international. But the NBA is the one league that just continues to, you know, be progressive, it evolves. You know, it attracts the urban kids, inner city kids, it attracts, you know, people of all of all shapes and sizes and colors and creeds, more so I feel like than any other sports.

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I completely agree with you. I mean, to me, I think in its simplest form, I think what it comes down to is the branding and marketability and player empowerment that has evolved over the years that I think has elevated the desire for more not just not just not just black kids, because you can basically make the argument that like you know, saying We are the originators we are the OGS at this like why out, yes, a white man had essentially created the game, as far as elevating the game, in and of itself, bringing more of the nuances that we appreciate about how the game can expand and broaden itself.

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The way that now in the international space, right, you see more European teams influence, by the way that black athletes, and that black basketball players, whether they were from the NBA, the ABA, or even just the NCAA, right, or just out of St. Ruckers, or any of your well known, you know, playground parks, like all of that translated and you didn't need television, you didn't need the internet, you didn't need any of those things, all you needed was that, that that crew, that guy, you know, I'm saying that person, you know, I'm saying that that felt like this game can translate anywhere.

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This game can speak to anybody in any language. And part of what has made the game of basketball, as phenomenally attractive, is that it can identify itself, within any form of a culture, not just the culture we speak about when we say hip hop, right? We could talk about it in every form of the culture, right? Because now we recognize how important culture is, how important of understanding where you fit within the culture, understanding what identifies you, within these cultures, basketball has had a weight an uncanny way of helping to open up that dialogue to kind of bring that conversation to the to the light sort of speak, you know, and it's transferable, right? I think a lot of people don't recognize or realize just how important a movie like White Men Can't Jump really, truly phenomenally is, you know, I'm saying it actually reversed that conversation about whether or not white guys can out can actually go out there and play and be as as athletic as the black athlete. Right. And you did that through the form of basketball. They didn't do that first with baseball, they didn't really even do that, per se with with the NFL and yielded as much success. You've had movies like say, like Brian song, you know, the Express, which you know, highlighted Brown, you know, in OJ Simpson back in the day and things of that nature. But there was never a movie that could really profile the togetherness, right? Of two completely distinct cultures, bring them together and say that this sport in and of itself, can be so nuanced, and speak in so many different ways. You could take it right in one area in LA, and then take it all the way out to New York City. And then somewhere it finds itself now out in Japan, or finds its way out in, you know, in Thailand, or in Vietnam, the game of basketball, I feel like understands that while it still is an individual, it is still encompasses the idea that the only way to win that game is you have to win with it as a team collectively. Right. And so it's been proven time and time again.

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We are in awe with the superstar athlete, right the Michael Jordan's The Kim, the the Kim Elijah ones that Charles Barkley's, but ultimately, they will all tell you that, among their greatness, the greatest feat and winning their championships, was with the guys that were out there that they leaned on to help them win those titles. You know, and it's it's ironic, because you can't find that kind of balance in the NFL, and you can't find that kind of balance. Even in Major League Baseball, you identify the great players, but you're not talking about the whole 53 man roster, right? There's maybe three guys that you remember from all your great NFL teams, there's maybe four guys that you remember from all your great, you know, World Series, Major League Baseball teams, but I guarantee you you'll probably remember the five guys who won that chip. You know, I'm saying if you're a Chicago Bulls fan back in, you know, 1993 You probably remember those those those back to back years, the Detroit Pistons and who was running it, those two years in a row, or the year that LeBron James and Anthony Davis wound up winning the NBA championship during the pandemic, you probably remember what that starting five looks like. And that's to me the nuance and an appreciation of what the game of basketball allows us to

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mean and I've had this conversation I've always felt that at least in terms of, you know, inner city kids and urban kids. Basketball was a cheaper option, right, it was an easier, more accessible option, because all you needed was a ball. If one of your boys had a ball or even if you know you put a couple of your boys together and he's put a couple bucks, you can get a ball and just go to the park and shoot. And even if we couldn't get to the to the park, we would just tie you know, we would tape a crate to a tree or to a pole, and we would shoot the ball into that shit.

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Remember, um, you know, in baseball, you need a ball a bat, you need all types of equipment, you know what I mean? And you need 1010 guys or whatever, hockey forget about it, you know, you know, you can't you can't even afford to play this shoe,

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or a mortgage. And most of those places, they never had anything accessible, like, right where I lived, you know, when I grew up as a kid in Brooklyn, where I stayed. I mean, where was their, where's their ice skating rink, Jose, wherever they were there, you know, nets, like, even like in areas where I stated and look, I mean, people can can can, you know, we can kind of philosophize on a, you know, philosophically try and figure out, you know, what that all meant, like, in the inner city, we only had, you know, concrete, you know, I'm saying playgrounds, we didn't have, you know, pretty looking grass fields, well, you know, maintain and curated landscapes, you know, I'm saying we didn't have all that kind of stuff. You know, basically everything was stickball, handball, you know, I'm saying, but like to go out and actually lay the game that you wanted if you were a bass because I'm a baseball fan.

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before I was even an NBA or basketball fan. I loved playing baseball, I grew up on the game on the sport and everything, but I did not have access to same type of accessibility, so to speak, that a lot of the kids, you know, growing up probably did have in order to play that game.

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Yeah. So, you know, NBA head in basketball in general has made it easier. But also, we talked about how it's in tune with the culture, you know, from the fashion from the sneakers, the Jordans, and this, you know, I mean, I know David Stern, you know, try to police it, how we looked how you know, how we dressed, you know, he was tripping when, when Allen Iverson showed up with a chain and some baggy pants and some cornrows, David Stern was tripping started putting these rules in place, you know, in the dress codes. I think Adam Silver's a little bit more lenient, which I think sometimes it's to a detriment of the league, because I feel like he lets the he lets the players run the league, basically, you know what I'm saying? He lets the inmates run the asylum.

00:32:30.779 --> 00:32:35.819
Basically, I see good, but I also feel like it's a detriment sometimes as well.

00:32:36.029 --> 00:32:51.180
So, and, and I, I'm not sure whether or not you were gonna jump in real quick, but I wanted to probably highlight something because I'm an old school, right? Like, as much as I didn't. I didn't like David Stern. But I didn't mean I didn't appreciate David Stern.

00:32:48.630 --> 00:33:24.480
And I think now as I've gotten older, I think one of the things that maybe even the guys nowadays that are of our our generation of you know, that were in the NBA, what I think they appreciated more, was the fact that David Stern knew that the money that the brand and the game of basketball was making was in that part of the industry was in that part of the field.

00:33:20.609 --> 00:35:43.739
Everything is Wall Street money made, right? So you got to come in, like if you want to get money, you want to get sponsorship, you want to get advertising, you got to come in with a suit and tie appeal. And I think David Stern did not want to compromise like, I'm not saying that, you know, he was just being he, of course he was being stubborn. I don't think his intent was to be forward minded thinking and believing that, you know, baggy Tim's cross colors call canonize, you know, I'm saying Shawn, John's, and stuff like that in front of the cameras would explode into what we now come to appreciate, right? Like, I think it's in much less the same way that people treated the hip hop culture. And I think that's the reason why basketball and hip hop culture were in sync so well, because the guys who were actually we're at the forefront of that. The Allen Iverson's, the Jalen Rose's and the Fab Five. All of these guys stay true to representing their area, their region and it sparked curiosity. People out there were like, Yo, I didn't know cats out in Michigan rock like that. Yo, I didn't realize cats out of Virginia, rock like that. Oh, then cats out there in DC with the Go Go music and everything like that. I had no idea that they get down like that the only time that you ever had that is if you actually went to colleges or you joined fraternities. Now you're seeing in, you know, national television, you're seeing people as a representation of their region of their culture, and it's sparking that interest. It's the same way that the hip hop call culture, you know, had that golden era of hip hop, created that boom, you had all of that vibe coming from the west coast, you had all that vibe coming from the East Coast. And then all of a sudden you see down south and Atlanta, and down in Texas, you know, the independent entrepreneurial, you know, I'm saying, feel Of Trap Music and how that was blossoming. And all of it was coming together, it was merging, you know, and flooding up MTV airwaves, then it eventually got to Vh one, and then it eventually got into other spaces where it became an advertisement father, and, you know, media fodder and things of that nature. It's ironic how the game of basketball also speaks in that same kind of way.

00:35:43.739 --> 00:37:06.840
Because without fear, those players went out there and showed this is what makes me who I am, you know, I'm saying they didn't let the sports sort of speak dictate who they were going to be, regardless of whether they were on the court or off the court. And I think at some point, David Stern recognized that realize that, and figured out a way to allow them to brand themselves, monetize themselves, but in the same way, still flow with a positive feel for this is how the NBA moves. And I think that distinction allowed them to have a lot of room for growth, because there were ups and downs with it. Right, we've still had the best of it. And we've also seen the ugliness of it, right, the malice in the palace, you know, things of that nature, like people understand that they were quick to affiliate this as being part of the hip hop culture. And this is how players handle themselves. You know, I'm saying whether it be on the court off the court, but again, no different than when we see NHL players go out there, and they, you know, they allow them to brawl. They allow them to fight beat each other up. But we don't you don't say we don't chastise those dudes for doing that kind of stuff. You don't I'm saying? And then they still come out in a suit and tie and make it seem like, Oh, they're they're just as nice as the NBA basketball players, when they're out there committing the same kind of, you know, felonies, no different than what the NBA players out there can be.

00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:32.820
When the NBA players do or their dogs gangsters, you know, I mean, NHL players do it. You know, they're, they're barbarians, but they're professional. Right. But yeah, we talked about the brands and you know, now they have the Nike checks on the uniforms. You know, they, the league, you know, they've got partnerships with different brands, like the Knicks got the partnership with Keith, you know, and it's a streetwear it's an urban streetwear. You name it. So now they're like, Okay, we can use the we can monetize this shit.

00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:36.179
You know, we might see Timberlands, next on the Jersey somewhere, you know,

00:37:36.780 --> 00:37:55.050
Timberlands, I felt Miss miss the boat. But yeah, you know, that's what that's when you know, that there are certain brands that I really felt like, were not true. You know, I'm saying to support in the culture, so to speak, as much as they say that they do.

00:37:52.139 --> 00:38:23.460
You know what I'm saying? Like, and I'm not and I'm not knocking it, listen, they have to make their money. But at some point, too, you got to recognize that when people are out there supporting you, you know, I'm saying when it when they're putting you in a position where you're now absorbing a new audience, you know, I'm saying, then you have to you have to start thinking a little bit more like how they're thinking, you know, not trying to mimic, but be forward thinking in the way that you're presenting yourself.

00:38:23.610 --> 00:38:28.500
So, you know, like companies for example, like, like timberland.

00:38:29.400 --> 00:39:13.619
I remember when, back in the day, Grand Poobah? You know, when he came out, and, you know, he was rocking, the Timberlands, he was rocking the north face, the corn hearts and stuff like that all of these brands had a problem with it. Right? Now look at where they look where they are now. You know, I'm saying in order for them to really try and gain you know, I'm saying the that that that that faction that that group of people that they missed out on because once it was revealed that they really didn't care for us wearing their, their brand, their their fits and things of that nature.

00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:55.409
But look, who who funnels the most money from a retail perspective. I'm sure that they wish that they had kind of walked back that kind of mentality or that frame of thinking and rather than score creating work in partnership, you know, I'm saying but again, we are in a different time in a different space. Because now everybody has an opportunity to be brand ambassadors you know, you can jump on Instagram and you basically can just put at whatever clothing line on there and if you got enough people following you and next thing you know they're going to be shipping you their clothes their gear and they want you out there modeling they want you out there front and their their gear your arms and that's why it also do it as it is it is in sports as well to

00:39:56.670 --> 00:40:20.820
brands like timberland and even like Tommy Hilfiger, you know that there were made for like blue collar, white collar workers and whatever. There wasn't, there wasn't necessarily a spur, at least at the beginning. They weren't, you know, marketing, to the ghettos to the urban to the inner cities. We basically just took that shit, you know, I mean, we were like, now we're going to infiltrate ya, we want to rock your shoe. And then their lie.

00:40:18.090 --> 00:40:30.420
Well, they had that we basically gave them no choice, because they were making so much money off of us. I don't even know. I mean, I don't even know if Jordan to be honest with you.

00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:33.480
I'm saying we're really mad me for a particular sect of people.

00:40:30.420 --> 00:41:10.199
You know, Jordan is one of those guys. We talk about it a lot, you know, where, and obviously, he didn't have social media back then. But he was like, the, the contrary of LeBron is, you know, outspoken. And he talks about all the social issues, like Jordan kept his mouth shut, because he wanted to sell the shoes to anybody, whites, blacks. You know, I'm saying Jew, who's republicans, democrats? I mean, so he kept his mouth shut up, right. But you talk about marketing in the NBA, I wanted to ask you, why is the WNBA not successful? Like what can the NBA do to help promote in marketing the Women's Association better? You know, I'm saying,

00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:18.210
Man, that's a that's a that's a it's an interesting question. Because I think, you know, again,

00:41:18.389 --> 00:41:21.030
because the NBA is losing money with the WNBA every year.

00:41:22.019 --> 00:43:35.730
Well, I will say this, I do think that the WNBA has, has increased its notoriety. And I think it is increased its its brand. What I probably would caution in saying this is is that the WNBA at this particular timeframe, you know, should be should be in a position where we should be able to appreciate watching the WNBA play, right. I think, if you continue if you're for example, if you're the NBA if you continue to have to keep investing, not because it's more of the business mindset, but more of the fact that it's, it's, it's because you're trying to support and if you're if this is all about the business aspect of things, you're not truly pushing the WNBA in any right direction, because it's not being motivated or driven by the idea that you properly believe that that watching, you know, females out there playing the game of basketball is a salient brand of watching, you know, no different than you're watching the NBA on TNT, or the NBA on ESPN. I think what just genuinely needs to happen is we need to start appreciating, and start, you know, the same kind of mentality attitude of creativity that we've given life and thread to the NBA, we should genuinely be doing the same thing for the WNBA. You know, and I think we're starting to see that a little bit more. I like the idea of seeing the WNBA kind of spread its own wings, I think if it continues to fall, like you know, be in the shadow of everything goes on going on with the NBA, you'll never be able to truly appreciate the genuine brand of basketball that does get played and the style of play, and the players that come out of that game. You know what I'm saying? I mean, we just seen some phenomenal players walk away from the game, for example, like Sue bird. And I wonder like how many people can really appreciate how great a legacy she built, going all the way back to her days playing UConn.

00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:42.030
You know, Diana Taurasi? Right?

00:43:36.480 --> 00:44:54.389
You know, so like, I want to see more of that, where we're starting to talk about the WNBA players individualistically, the same way that we're starting to talk about the NBA players. But I think only the only way that part happens is the WNBA has to stand on its own. I'm not saying that the NBA shouldn't be supportive. I appreciate how the NBA is very supportive. I appreciate that the men go out and support WNBA games. I appreciate that they're out there in solidified effort during certain causes and things of that nature. Because if you really think about it, the WNBA has been has it had has had more of a voice on cultural issues, right things involving, for example, the George Floyd incident situation that happened with Brittney Griner. A lot of the WNBA initiative has spoke as resonated a lot more loudly. And I think part of that is because of the genuine aspect of things that these girls really believe that yo, there's injustice is going on there things going on at AIT, right? And they're using that opportunity, that platform.

00:44:50.909 --> 00:45:05.940
I see way too many times where when the NBA has had an opportunity to speak collectively about certain things. That it's all only coming from Lebron James. It's only coming from Dwayne Wade.

00:45:06.090 --> 00:45:14.130
It's only coming from Steph Curry. It needs to come from the collective body, like everybody.

00:45:10.050 --> 00:45:20.550
So everybody is on that same page. It's it should speak to say we as the NBA, not the 3%.

00:45:20.940 --> 00:46:30.630
And then the other 97%. You know, I'm saying that the only time that they'll speak about it is if someone from local TV puts a microphone in front of them like that. Like, when the WNBA comes out, and I don't know if what do you guys have noticed is when the WNBA comes out, you see it collectively, right? Like both teams, national television, stay there, right there in front of it, say we stand for this, when NBA comes out, one or two players go out there, the spotlight is on them for a couple minutes. And then you see in the backdrop the rest of the other players they're like all in a player should be their players, probably from from from, who are not playing that night come out to that to that arena, they know that there's a primetime game going on on there, be there right there in that moment where something significantly needs to be said about something wrong, something needed to be addressed social injustice, you know, pay equality, things of that nature, there just needs to be more togetherness in that particular aspect. I get the individual branding, I understand it. But the NBA can take can take a you know a couple pages from the WNBA book on how to show togetherness and things and act like you're on the same page when it comes to addressing some of those issues.

00:46:31.860 --> 00:47:06.719
I mean, I'll admit, I haven't watched the WNBA. Since deliberately, we're making it to the finals every year back when the league first started, you know, I was really into it back then with the Teresa Weatherspoons in them. But when you see NBA mascots making more money than WNBA players, that's a problem when you see a WNBA you know, women coming over to the NBA to coach or coming over to be analysts for NBA games, because that's where the money is, you know, that gives you an idea of the disparity that exists, you know, between the two leagues. White wise and laughing.

00:47:08.940 --> 00:47:32.699
But you gotta understand, man, the WNBA has been in existence for 20 years, understand the way the NBA kind of like sub Leadsom. And, like, kind of provide them additional financial support. And they've expanded, and they've done some amazing things. And right, they're always at the forefront of any kind of social injustice.

00:47:29.010 --> 00:47:36.989
Women generally are also the frontline of everything.

00:47:32.699 --> 00:47:48.329
Prominent WNBA is that said W in front of it. Games. The interesting thing about like NBA arenas is that you get a blend of fans of all kinds of shapes, races, colors, Creed's whatever some can afford ones at the top.

00:47:48.329 --> 00:48:40.530
So going forward, ones that are down a little bit, you see everybody, you see some some crazy fans, some guy face paint, holding up signs and everything else like that. They're almost like a soccer game, like it's territorialism of it all. Like, you could be a Knicks fan, but you can't be a New York fan. You can't like Brooklyn, and New York, you got to pick one or the other. It's all tribal. Like that sport needs, like they need women to support like they need the people that that kind of a went on to kind of go there and watch those games. And watch those games. It's a lot of empty seats. And a lot of really big arenas. Now, I'm pretty sure they're going to be sitting up top because you got plenty of space down at the bottom to fit over into these places. But they need kind of like Mr. Lee said, it got to kind of become a little bit more self sufficient.

00:48:41.309 --> 00:50:24.059
Like if you raise the money and you get the sponsors and you get the advertisers, great more money for the league, you get the chance to pay your players more, you don't end up with a Britain grind situation where you're forced to go to a whole different country. And the rules play a little bit different over there and kind of becomes an international incident. It had been here the entire time. But like since she's forced to a degree, go over there to earn the salary that she believes she deserved that she's going to get. Like even now they are playing this almost like football where they have like a core designation player. So you have this one star and the rest of it, they get the top salary and the rest have got to figure out like the the there's no no equality in regards to PayScale to it. It's like it's not worth it financially like for like some of the people there. That's what I had to make, you know those international trips every year. So like the NBA, you have those women playing pretty much year round, like that summer off, like they're in another country, or there's the Olympics or there's something else like that. They do this nonstop. And I personally appreciate the effort that they put forward because you're always gonna see them on TV somewhere. But they have to find a way to be more functional to be more self sufficient. Even if that means everyone needs to take a little bit less but you get a larger slice of the pie. They're going to have to do that because I'm not certain how they can serve I live much longer. With the NBA subsidized thing, they probably can survive a while. Let me not be dismissive of it. Because eventually, when the new TV contract comes up for the NBA, someone's going to pay gangbusters for it, and then no, you know, bring a little bit down to the WNBA. But eventually, it has to kind of get to the point where they can't do that any longer.

00:50:20.159 --> 00:51:39.030
Because it just it's, it dilutes the brand of the league. Like, you kind of see certain men, not all, but certain hyper masculine men always want to see like, Well, the reason you guys are just because you have those guys back again, I think, at the 20 plus year, they got to find a way to like, kind of get off of that thing. And figure out how to make this league work. Like there's talented players. Now that put time to play in college, there's always somebody I know, you've seen it before lecture as well. It's fun, but it's got there's women like Elena della Dawn of assistance, I'm sorry, they're all popped into my head, I want to apologize. But they gotta try something different. I think that the league is in good shape. I think even after all the time, there's still tons of room for improvement. They have to find an audience where it just kind of works with them, and they go forward and push them forward. So I mean, the reason why I was laughing because I'm like, You're you're still kind of being subletted after 20 years. And that's a strange thing to say like, you're getting all this financial support. You guys really can't stand on your own two feet. But I think they are so driven and that they are so focused on not only basketball, but the the ills within society itself that I think that they can have something very special.

00:51:39.630 --> 00:51:42.030
But they got to kind of just go out and just traveling, you know.

00:51:42.929 --> 00:52:41.670
Amen. I I often come on here, and I rant about how soft today's plays off. Yeah, because I'm an 80s. Baby. I grew up in the 90s I I'm a Knicks fan diehard. We're both Nick fans, but I think I'm more diehard than Andy is so we grew up watching the Knicks clobbering people you know what I mean? If you got into pain he was getting clothesline body slammed tackled powerbomb right. And it's like, I feel like today's athletes compared to back then are just so soft. So fragile, right? And I feel like we still see more injuries. Despite you know, all the technological advances you know, they get extra rest all these new rules to protect the athletes you know, all this load management that you know was unheard of back then. And all this to protect that and we see it in football. We see it in basketball and baseball even.

00:52:37.710 --> 00:52:45.630
And I feel like there's still you know, we still see more injuries. Like what gives man

00:52:47.250 --> 00:52:51.000
are we talking about are we talking about just the NBA itself?

00:52:52.829 --> 00:53:05.460
Let's talk NBA because these players are soft this shit. And I know that and I know the rules have a lot to do with it. The officiating has a lot to do with it. You can look at nobody I saw somebody get a technical for clapping too loud.

00:53:06.300 --> 00:53:53.550
Recently, you look at the ref a certain way to give you a technical a common found now is a flagrant tool. So I was watching a documentary of the Celtics vs. Bulls. And dudes was getting clothesline, bro, every time Michael Jordan got a foot in the paint. He got clothesline, bro. And it was a common file if any whistle was blown at all. And I'm not condoning violence. I'm not saying there should be no, I'm not saying this. We shouldn't progress or evolve. But there has to be. Let me let I'm not saying you know, let somebody get clothesline but you can't be given technicals for common files or flagrant just because I looked at you or yelled at you a little bit.

00:53:54.300 --> 00:54:11.340
Let me ask. I want to ask you guys a question real quick. So Jeff, let me ask you this. If you believe that the players itself this shit, right.

00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:11.340
Right. Then how they're whining?

00:54:11.340 --> 00:54:30.960
How How would you? How would you relegate? How do you relegate the physicality of the game and still allow teams to score at the rate that they're scoring?

00:54:26.070 --> 00:54:49.320
Right? So what I'm basically asking this because I think the question I'm asking is actually going to challenge what we're talking about. If you want the game to be physical, you're not going to see teams scoring the amount of points that they're scoring, which of what you're saying, If what you're saying is you're a believer that you want those games to be low scoring.

00:54:50.369 --> 00:55:45.119
But again, maybe that comes from the era because of the era where I grew up in. I appreciate a game where the teams are scoring under 100 where you got to play defense and you know Because I saw that growing up, where the Knicks took pride in holding their teams under 100 points, if you scored 100 points, you was doing something right. Now I see teams routinely scoring 140 150 points, like there's nothing, and a lot of it has to do with the game being nothing but threes, which is another conversation as well. You know, it's three pointers and nothing like in baseball is home run or strikeout. That's all it is. And basketball is three pointers or nothing. You know, so that's, I feel like in that aspect of it, there's less skilled and well, I mean, I understand that these players have today shoot better than any players in the history of basketball. They've perfected the art of shooting threes from 25 3040 feet, half court, these guys are sharp shooters, and it takes skill. I appreciate that.

00:55:42.300 --> 00:56:03.570
But what about the rest of the of the game? Defense, you know, the rebounding, you know, the cutting the, you know, the setting your teammates up, like, all of that shit is lost. I feel like bro, it's just give me the ball move out of the way and watch me shoot this three. If you get the rebound, find another guy, let him shoot another three. Like, you know what I mean? That's all it is.

00:56:03.599 --> 00:56:07.739
All right, so I can see like, I feel like ants guy. He's like,

00:56:09.840 --> 00:56:12.150
and, and is older than me.

00:56:09.840 --> 00:56:22.889
So I don't know why he has a mentality. You know, I know the younger kids are 20 year olds, they like this. They like this offensive game. They don't care about defense, I understand that. You know, the three pointers are sexy to them. They want to see 150 points.

00:56:23.159 --> 00:56:54.960
I kind of disagree a little bit. I don't think it's so much the fact that I don't think teams play defense, I think we're mistaken defense with physicality, like being physical doesn't necessarily mean that you're playing great defense. Right? I think that what we're talking about is the evolution of the way that we play the game, the game is much faster, right? There is much more transition basketball than I think we'll ever see. Right?

00:56:50.820 --> 00:57:21.030
And it'll continue to be that way. Because there are now there is, to your point, technology, a whole bunch of things that are involved to help evolve the athletes that evolve the athlete, and I will say this, I think Analytics has played a major role. And I want to say negatively impacting how an athlete evolves in their sport.

00:57:22.230 --> 00:58:10.019
Now, there's some positives, but I I tend to kind of err on the side of caution with people because what you're telling me is, if you give me a statistic that tells me that I only I'm only I'm a I'm an effective 38% three point shooter, you know, in the corners on the 25%, three point shooter, the top of the wing, right. And so when they design offense is it specifically said I'm flunking out to the corner? Waiting to shoot that three? Right? Because if and here's what happens if I don't make that three. And if I don't make it within a certain frequency, guess where my ass is going to be? I'm riding the bench.

00:58:10.920 --> 00:58:11.699
But

00:58:12.539 --> 00:58:48.599
if I am an adequate rebounder, if I am an adequate, you know, Defender, isn't it upon the coaches and the coaching staff to design ways to have me be out there on the basketball court to be effective? And shouldn't it be on myself to continue to elevate and cultivate my game? To not only allow myself to be just a three point, a three and D type shooter or this type of person, I understand that you need players to do specific things.

00:58:43.800 --> 00:59:53.190
But I also feel like at times the analytics thwarts what athletes should naturally be doing, which is becoming better all around players. Right. To your point, though, I think this of itself is what tends to stymie our appreciation for what the modern Game of the NBA is doing. Right? Because it seems like we only get to see that in part we don't see it in whole unfortunately, but as it pertains to like the physicality and things of that nature. Yeah, I would like to see the guys be more physical. But I put more of this on more of the rules. I put this more in the way that the refs are. Are you know, I'm saying calling the games right like I don't think like most in most cases, I don't even think it's more about the physicality as much as it is just a tiki tackiness you know, I'm saying and that and that's on just the way that they're, they're developing those rules. I think players do want to be more physical. I think players do want to be you know, especially with the way that they the of how they're playing the game.

00:59:50.159 --> 00:59:55.440
With such speed. I think they want to do close outs I think they want to do those things.

00:59:55.530 --> 01:00:56.250
And you can see it it's the reason why that they they complain more times than anything you nerves in. But I believe that the product that the NBA feels like is the best product is basically free flowing and almost like this ole kind of thing. But you see, like the really good teams like the Milwaukee Bucks, they have prey, they play a pretty physical brand stuff. And they've got physical players who show that you know what I'm saying? The Memphis Grizzlies, you can make an argument that if the men's Memphis Grizzlies were were whole, they weren't injured, their athleticism would have put the Golden State Warriors in a bind last year. Right. So there are different styles. And I appreciate that there's different styles out there that teams are putting together these rosters in order to show us which one for this particular season is best equipped to not only show you that they can score, but also can play defense as well, because defense still wins championship will give a damn what anybody tells me.

01:00:56.489 --> 01:01:37.409
Defense still wins championships, you ask them, What Waukee bucks, and you asked to Golden State Warriors, like everybody's enamored with the Golden State Warriors and how they score that basketball. But you ask every single one of them, they will tell you they don't win those chips, unless they played good defense. And if you look at their defensive metrics, you know, and again, the analytics, they are very deceiving, because we're not saying that their defense was as good as the Chicago Bulls in the 90s or the Detroit Pistons, but their defensive efficiency and the way that they were able to hold good teams who had good offense is down to they position themselves to win championships still speaks for something. So I get where you're coming from, because I'm I'm old school too.

01:01:37.409 --> 01:01:48.989
I want to see physicality. But I don't want to see it where it's just like, you know, we're like to that point where dudes are literally getting clothesline in the middle of the game. Like that's not just that's not that's not playing basketball.

01:01:48.989 --> 01:01:53.730
That's just basically wrestling.

01:01:48.989 --> 01:01:53.940
I'm saying and like that part. I didn't

01:01:54.059 --> 01:01:56.369
appreciate it a lot to play defense.

01:01:56.880 --> 01:02:30.329
Yeah, I mean, you could put a body but put a body on a dude. require some physicality. You can put a body on a guy, but you literally don't need to run a guy over and then complain and say what that's not a foul. Like yesterday. You slap a guy on the wrist? You don't say like you remember, like when we were playing with you when you were playing? You know, say a pickup ball, right? You don't do that you hated the most. You didn't hate that. You did? Yeah, the guy that was always constantly calling the foul. Yeah. Hey, that was when you wish you had a referee calling them damn games.

01:02:30.420 --> 01:02:47.699
Because you live like you remember, you got to the point where you had to call the guy from the side be like, you know, especially the dude who would who had next, you know, cuz you want to know you want to get through the game, because they want to get on the court in play whoever is next. But that's literally what you had to do.

01:02:44.250 --> 01:02:47.699
Because it literally

01:02:48.000 --> 01:02:50.820
we never call filed, there was no blood no foul that was

01:02:51.449 --> 01:03:08.550
in an organized game. Like you can't just expect the guy to get clothesline and then not saying well, you know you shouldn't have slipped when you when you are going up for this. That's how that's when you met my my forearm like, you know, there has to be there's got to be a balance to that.

01:03:09.269 --> 01:03:22.050
But you can't even do you can't even do a hand check. Now the handshake was a thing. You know, I'm saying he wasn't getting around Jordan or Pippin because they had you right there like curry wasn't going to do all the shit he does and and Trey young running around you like they you know they do now?

01:03:22.320 --> 01:03:31.619
Because they would have grabbed you and held you right in front of them. Like you ain't going nowhere. You can't do none of that shit. Now you know what I'm saying? But then there's certain things that they don't call that require skill like dribbling.

01:03:31.619 --> 01:03:58.170
Without palming the ball Giannis does it in every single possession. They don't call that traveling. Everybody takes three or four steps every single possession they don't call it that should grinds my gears when I see this shit, you know, because those are the parts of the of the game that require skill. Dribbling up and down the core without double dribbling without traveling without taking more than two steps. You know what I'm saying? I agree with you. These are the things that we was doing in the park that require some semblance of skill.

01:03:58.530 --> 01:04:21.030
And that's what they ignore in the NBA. But if you tap into tap somebody they want to call a foul. If you have your foot underneath them when they're shooting, even if you're not touching them is a foul. They get a four point play. That shit is crazy to me. I was watching highlights of the 99 Knicks the other day because you know this is all I have. This is all I have. I can I can reminisce of when you know the good old days.

01:04:21.389 --> 01:05:06.690
And I remember when Alan Houston made that game winning floater against the Miami Heat. And if you go back and watch that play, he got hit in the head no foul was called. At the time I didn't even realize that she you watch it now on YouTube or whatever you watch the replay. He shoots the floater. Then Marley smacks him in the head I think I believe it was Dan Marley. One of them white dudes from the from the he at the time smacks him in the head. No call. That's a foul today and then they're reviewing it to see if it's a flagrant or technical. You know what I'm saying in today's game, but it was no call. He made it one by one. You know what I'm saying? But whatever. I'm not gonna take too much more your time. meant there was like a rant about this shit all day. So this is the final question. And we asked this to all our guests.

01:05:07.139 --> 01:05:20.039
I don't understand what you get at. Things get off my chest. Because it'd be like, you're nostalgic about one of the weirdest times in the NBA.

01:05:16.800 --> 01:05:20.039
Right?

01:05:20.460 --> 01:05:27.269
The best time the golden era Na Na because golden pop golden everybody NBA golden ever. What are you talking about, bro?

01:05:27.659 --> 01:05:32.248
It's like Michael Jordan has 33 points, eight rebounds, seven assists. Fine.

01:05:30.179 --> 01:05:32.248
It

01:05:32.250 --> 01:05:33.389
was a great game 81

01:05:33.418 --> 01:05:35.398
Which 81 70%.

01:05:37.320 --> 01:05:38.489
Yet it

01:05:38.489 --> 01:05:40.739
you know how hard it was for him to get those 30 points.

01:05:41.489 --> 01:05:44.639
Not without showing any threes without showing any threes.

01:05:44.639 --> 01:05:55.530
Jordan took no threes, and still gave you consistently 30 plus points every game you're upset about while getting clobbered in the pain. But you're and then people want to tell me that he's not to go.

01:05:56.880 --> 01:06:05.610
The moment you go 55 You can't go 50 anymore. When we go 60 We can't go 55 anymore.

01:06:01.590 --> 01:06:52.590
They keep increasing the speed limit it gets faster, it gets more skilled. The thing that's changed about the NBA the the thing that you want the physicality so on so forth. Know these massive human beings that used to be sinners, you don't have sinners anymore. It's not it's not a slow the game down thrown to the paint. Let the guy do his job that takes time off the clock. The air you're talking about was dominated by big men. And they all played that slow down because that was their best player, your best player now our wings, and that can do everything guards. They cannot shoot like stuff, but they're more versatile and they're more skill. Jack can't shoot like Steph. But he can get up almost like MJ, it's different, the game is fat. If you try to play a slow down game, now you're going to die.

01:06:52.619 --> 01:07:28.170
There's only one team leader can do to right now. And that's Milwaukee because they basically have a central playing power for or smoke. That's what Jana says, yawns is basically a big man who can handle the ball a bit, because all his baskets are near the hoop, not a bunch of jumpers, or step backs. Anything else like that the game really has. The best center in the league is a guy who has the passing vision of Larry Bird, who can bring the ball up the court and knock down threes and still defend a little bit. We're worried about a game and calling themselves they're not just that they allowed them to open his game or to a point where they allow them to access everything.

01:07:28.530 --> 01:07:55.590
It's like having the cheat code like we can unlock all your weapons or your skills. You can put them on the floor now. Are they going to do something about it? Eventually they will. But that's only if people really start complaining and who's going to complain about a high scoring game. Like saying before about guys getting close one pointed out for ticket and LeBron James good Cleveland hospital. I want money back. I need a refund, bro. This is what I signed up for Hold on. If I wasn't wrestling, I would have came with a garden had WWE here.

01:07:55.619 --> 01:08:00.989
This ain't what I'm signing up for. You let them run you let them be free. If it gets out of hand, they'll change the rules.

01:08:01.170 --> 01:08:51.689
They did that before because they recently did it a year or so ago. With the whole like the James Harden thing. Like they they're really particular about guys going into lane and flopping outside of it. But that whole going in there diving into people and like James was great for like, like, getting them to go vertical, the pump fake and diving in the guys. They outlawed that because they know like you're taking the rule and going too far. Are they going to change this? I don't know. I don't think they are because people love it. I mean, when's the last time you heard I mean, it wasn't tragic night. But when's the last time you ever heard about it Cleveland, Cleveland live outside of LeBron James lino sports 71 and 11 assists. And he went crazy. And like gluco went crazy. Yo, kitch went crazy. John is just went crazy. I think he averaged 45 and 15 over the past five games.

01:08:47.699 --> 01:09:06.359
They love this. This is what they're asking for. If it goes too far, because you're talking about scoring now check the scoring in like the early to mid 80s. There was no defense being played. It was like, like games like 131 120 Every night rules to be and they had to change the

01:09:06.359 --> 01:10:01.770
game to be right or more defensive minded and I think threatening now that is a there's a balance. Like, I think that there's a there's a there's a happy medium. But what I appreciate more about what we're seeing from this iteration to this era of basketball is you're seeing more opportunities for for superstar athletes to stake their claim. Like I loved our era of the NBA, right? Or magic, Isaiah Thomas. And then you know, Jordan comes in, and then Pippin and then you have Malone and you've got Stockton, but you can make the argument that probably within his last 10 years, this stretch of the last 10 years, the budgeting superstars that are coming out of the NBA and all with us.

01:09:57.810 --> 01:11:36.149
skill sets and different ways that they can help amaze. So you were talking about Donovan Mitchell like right now, but it's not like Donovan Mitchell just came out of nowhere. He's been doing this now for a couple of years. The problem was that he was playing in Utah. You know, I'm saying he was playing in a system that I don't think really appreciated that if they wanted him to be the man, they would have figured out a way for him to be the man, his coming out party was in that series against the Denver Nuggets, and Jamal Murray, you know, I'm saying that was and that was where we were saying, yo, we want to see more of this, then all of a sudden, that window of opportunity that the Utah Jazz had suddenly closes. He's now in Cleveland, Jamal Murray suffered to ACL injury since then. So we were robbed of an opportunity of seeing two teams in small markets, essentially by the NBA standards, who had to superstar superstar profile players who actually represent the Western Conference now, right, the future of the Western Conference, because we didn't know where Steph Curry is going to be Klay Thompson was still on demand. Right? Like, it's beautiful to see the way that the game now we're starting to spread its wings a little bit more and more, we're seeing more opportunity for some of the star players to come out and make a name for themselves. You got John Moran, who is like Allen Iverson 2.0 You know, MIT doing his thing out in Memphis, we wouldn't have seen this some 1520 years ago, teams like the Memphis Grizzlies wouldn't have been able to sniff having a superstar like that, they would have to be lucky in the lottery.

01:11:32.250 --> 01:12:52.170
But that kind of tells you like the way that the game has changed. It's making way for new for newer versions of an NBA star to come out and do their thing. Because you can't say that John Moran and Donovan Mitchell are cut from the same cloth. Everybody, like, every year, everybody who was coming out had to be like Michael Jordan, right? Kobe Bryant was the next Michael Jordan. Right, LeBron James, the next Michael Jordan. And we're not talking about the measure in greatness of the numbers as much as we're saying of the promise that next coming up, you know, people were doing that with Kyrie Irving, the moment that LeBron James left, and look how long it's taken for us to be able to really appreciate how great Kyrie Irving can can can really be, you know, I'm saying a lot of his own doing, but much like how we we quickly corner a player because there were so many few players like that in our era. Now. You got Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving playing just for the Brooklyn Nets and of itself. You got Jalen Brunson was starting to make a name for himself. Right? Like much like how we wanted to see where they came from out of Villanova. We don't know if whether or not that kid got that kind of game.

01:12:49.170 --> 01:12:58.680
Right. He's been playing in the shadows of Luka doncic. Out there in Dallas. You see what he's actually capable of for the New York Knicks? Right now.

01:12:58.680 --> 01:13:41.939
Everybody was saying, Oh, wow, what would have been like if Donovan was playing next to Jalen Brunson or whatever the case may be? So now you gotta got you got someone you got got your opportunities for guys to establish themselves, especially in on teams in which they haven't had that in a while and can be viable, can can be sustainable, like the Boston Celtics have had Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum. Right. So I mean, like, we don't, we don't have we never really had that in with so many teams. During our era, it's only been like, a good number of players. And and there's just the rest of the NBA. You know, I'm saying, Now, we've got a plethora of talented dudes who I think are going to be in this game for a long time.

01:13:43.079 --> 01:14:02.579
And submit as though honestly, how many points would Jordan average in today's game, he averaged 30 points for his career in a physical league without shooting threes? How much would he average today where you can't touch him. And he'd be more cognizant of shooting more threes? Because that's what today's game is.

01:14:02.609 --> 01:14:18.090
I mean, I definitely see him averaging somewhere around 3435 points per game. By but I but I honestly would say though, what kind of teams will he be playing on? You know, I'm saying like,

01:14:18.659 --> 01:14:20.579
you know, half his points would be on the free game. And

01:14:21.630 --> 01:14:28.859
the question I would have to ask is, is that is the is that type of Michael Jordan that we're talking about?

01:14:29.279 --> 01:16:24.510
Sustained, like going to be successful in this kind of in this era, because then you have to carry who he is who he's got around him, you know, I'm saying to be able to do that, kind of to do that with and the last time I recall seeing that happen, I haven't seen a team truly be successful in that kind of regard. You know, I'm saying like, you're gonna need you. If you're telling me you're carrying the Scottie Pippen with Michael Jordan. Okay, if you're gonna carry that bulls team collectively, for what Jordan would be doing, then that makes sense. because then I'll talk about Yeah, that's an error of dominance right there. But I would beg to differ if you're telling me what Michael Jordan individually does. That all seems great, the numbers look really good. But I don't know if whether or not that translates to winning championships, because of the style of the way that these guys are playing right now. Like, I will tell you right now, while Michael Jordan can get his in the paint, look at for example, Zion, Williamson is scoring that is scoring about as much as what Michael Jordan was doing during his error, right. But that does not translate to him, quote, unquote, that team playing an NBA Finals, we're not speaking with utter confidence yet until we see what that actually looks like and what that actually means. So, you know, again, there are things about Michael Jordan, I think people have to really, truly appreciate to say, Damn, this is the reason why he's the goat it was the intangibles that he gave to the game of basketball that the numbers could not measure that put it that put him in that conversation that he gets to an NBA Finals, he's undefeated. And it didn't matter how good or how bad his team was. Because ultimately, most of those teams, you could probably make the argument weren't really all that great if they were playing by themselves. So having a Michael Jordan on our team was important. But in this particular NBA, he may have to change his game a little bit, if it's meaning for him to win the same kind of way that he won.

01:16:21.090 --> 01:16:45.420
Back then, the level of dominance, I think, completely changes nowadays, because of the style. And the way that those games are played was more isolation, more figuring out where to get Jordan. Now, it's more how Jordan can figure out ways to use his play and use his teammates to find those same openings that he was easily able to find during his heyday of dominance.

01:16:46.439 --> 01:16:56.310
Yeah, when I hear these young guys do polls, these hypothetical questions all the bulls versus the warriors who would win my question is what rules? It depends what rules are they playing with 90s rules? Are they planning to today's

01:16:57.359 --> 01:17:00.029
that sentiment?

01:16:57.359 --> 01:17:47.010
Yeah, I mean, you can make that you made the argument that the Warriors are like, like one of the great offensive teams, but they would know there would be nowhere near close defensively, to the way that the Chicago Bulls had played in that in that type of air. And I'm not even talking about a level of physicality I'm talking about in the way that they would rebound in the way that they would close out on defenders defending the two and the three, the level of athleticism, youmzain. I mean, I don't think people really appreciated what those bulls teams really had done, probably because of the inferiority of the competition that they really dealt with, you know, I'm saying through that span of their level of dominance, and you can make the argument that warriors probably had more talented guys played that they played against, but I don't know if they were necessarily as talented teams.

01:17:47.579 --> 01:17:51.720
You know, I'm saying especially when they had curry, Thompson, green and Durant.

01:17:53.789 --> 01:17:59.189
Alright, this is the final question. Well, there's going to be a two parter for your case.

01:17:55.649 --> 01:18:00.479
First of all, give me your top five players of all time.

01:18:01.979 --> 01:18:21.630
Question. I genuinely really, really hate this question. jostled back and forth on this so Kareem Abdul Jabbar Bill Russell. Okay.

01:18:12.689 --> 01:18:21.630
Michael Jordan. Magic Johnson.

01:18:27.689 --> 01:18:28.590
Lebron James.

01:18:30.750 --> 01:18:34.020
I thought she was gonna leave LeBron out. I was gonna be like, Oh, let

01:18:34.020 --> 01:20:23.220
me put it like this. This is this is it's really really tough. Because I should I should, there basically, I look at it almost as like a four way tie. Because I have Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James and Shaquille O'Neal. And it's, it's just healthified tough. But when I look at the body of work of what LeBron James has been able to do, when I look at what he is still capable of doing. He's gonna far surpass, you know, what Shaq has done. He's far gonna surpass, you know, he's already done that arguably with with with what I feel like Larry Bird who was my favorite, you know, basketball player that I loved watching. And with Kobe Bryant. I understand where people are with Kobe Bryant. But I just don't feel like with the time that Kobe Bryant had maybe if it wasn't with the Los Angeles Lakers per se, like what he would have done, like on another team, instead of just only being paired up next to Shaquille O'Neal. Like those individual numbers sort of speak where that could have like stood on its own. But you got to pair what the level of dominance that he showed you during the years of of, of ship of Shaq and then post check, right? But i i It's just so tough man. It's just so tough. But like you know what you see with Lebron was phenomenal. So let me hear your five. I said Kareem green card bill. You still awesome dammit.

01:20:15.390 --> 01:20:23.220
I said yeah, I said magic.

01:20:23.310 --> 01:20:26.520
He said MJ magic bird Karima is a bird.

01:20:27.239 --> 01:20:29.310
I put LeBron. I didn't put

01:20:30.720 --> 01:20:36.420
Berta for LeBron. Yeah.

01:20:30.720 --> 01:20:39.180
Okay. Kobe thing is, like, I understand from this generation why he matters so much to them.

01:20:39.270 --> 01:21:02.729
But to me, it's always like, he tried to compare him to Mike and this really no disrespect to Kobe, but he's not Mike because Mike never demanded a trade as much of an aihole as you might think, Michael, Mike is he would have never dealt with COVID in the game. He just like, I just didn't go and shoot. Mike would have never done that. If similar. They just built completely different now. That was a Yeah.

01:21:03.659 --> 01:21:04.560
I feel your

01:21:04.590 --> 01:21:10.590
final and lastly, lastly, your top five MC Hall.

01:21:12.569 --> 01:21:19.619
Oh, goodness gracious. This way, I don't have a migraine

01:21:25.949 --> 01:21:27.060
the spontaneous answers,

01:21:27.390 --> 01:21:36.210
correct. No, no, no. So you have to really appreciate like, you know what?

01:21:29.579 --> 01:21:59.039
I felt you know, sorry. We're hip hop is so loud. Alright, here we go. Rockin most def CL Smooth. Why? Wow, nice. And Biggie Smalls. I'm not mad at

01:22:01.079 --> 01:22:04.319
you for your ad. That's the favorite rapper if you live

01:22:05.309 --> 01:22:08.488
tight. But let me let me let me. Let me say this.

01:22:08.488 --> 01:22:22.708
I'm gonna make sure I preface this right. I probably should have said this. If you asked me who I should have been, who are my top five lyricist? Because I think there's a distinction between lyricist and rappers.

01:22:18.328 --> 01:22:42.779
And if that's the case, then not that top five really changes, right? Like I can easily say biggie. I will put Tupac I will put Jay Z in there. I will put ice cube. And I will put probably like, like, say like I'll probably put in. I'll probably put Eminem in there.

01:22:43.048 --> 01:22:55.078
Because I think a rap when I think of rappers I think about the success. You know, I'm saying in hip hop, and the notoriety that comes with it.

01:22:51.779 --> 01:23:18.658
But when I you know, when you asked me what my top five rappers I'm only speaking like, yeah, like you said, you know, if I'm, if I'm, this is what I first think about because I think of the lyricist. And I think about, you know how they influenced, you know, hip hop, like, I didn't put commas in there. And I he could have he could have easily been in like, it's one of my top like, like, like, right up there on my top five. You know, I'm saying so

01:23:19.079 --> 01:23:29.310
it can your own argument. But what was really the one the first question that Jeff asked was basically like, like, what is the distinction?

01:23:25.859 --> 01:23:42.449
Like, why does one influence the other? Like, say you can see, with basketball, you start thinking of your top five, whatever. It's like, well, he was good at this, but maybe that like, Oh, what about Dr. Jay? Is it flip flops, it goes back and forth. Same thing with hip hop.

01:23:42.720 --> 01:24:15.270
It's like, it's this but if you say and I find that it'd be this, that's like saying like, like Steph Curry might not be in the top five. But we've seen like well put put together the best shooting lineup or the best. Like it always switches. I think what the connection between both, is that in reality in a very nuanced sense. They're both forms of art, the art of basketball, and the art of hip hop was so influential. Like, one thing influences the other.

01:24:11.220 --> 01:24:24.840
But there is no one thing that defines it as it's, it's going to be an evolving thing. It's 20 years now, there's gonna be a great basketball player or another rapper, we just have to learn to appreciate that

01:24:24.869 --> 01:25:16.319
I mean, look, and especially for example, like, I speak, those guys I speak of is because they're the ones who influenced me during my time when I got involved in doing hip hop. You know, I used to be you know, when I lived in Orlando, Florida, I used to, you know, be with a group, you know, and we, we performed it shows. My MC name was CL Mecca, right? So like when you know, when you shoot and email me, you know, CL mech, everyone's thinking, Well, you know, what CL Mecca I was just like, well, it's my name, Cowley. I was like, but I remember For the moment, you know, my favorite one of my favorite albums of all time, is Mecca and soul brother, Pete Rock and CL Smooth. I like my lyricism, the way my style, my rhyming, was influenced by CL Smooth. You know, I'm saying so.

01:25:17.130 --> 01:25:33.239
And people probably now and just like, you know, they think about pete rock and CL Smooth. And, you know, the first thing they'll probably think about is they reminisce over you. But like, if you really listened to that album, that album was like, almost like a ahead of its time.

01:25:29.670 --> 01:27:46.260
You know, I'm saying with the beats, the production, the lyricism, and to me, like if you're asking somebody, what how would that not be something that you would consider your favorite, like, you don't get influenced into this game, just simply because, you know, you hear or see just one particular thing. It sparks something that remind you of a time, you know, I'm saying where you might have been, what you might have been doing, that allows you to appreciate that even to this day. Like if I if you ask me right now and say, you know, do you even still listen to hip hop? I probably tell you not as much as I probably used to. But if you ask me what do I do to hit a reset button automatically gravitate and you know, I'm saying to the album, you know, I'm saying mechana soul brother, you know, I'm saying I'm listening to straighten it out and if it a rough day, right, you know, I'm saying like I'm listening to I'm listening to that whole album. I'm listening to helter skelter is nocturnal, which I think is a top five album of all time in my in my you know, listening of hip hop, because I used to like yo, boot camp click blackmoon They were like my first love of groups coming out, you know, I'm saying and I know everybody loves the mob deeps and you know, they they love the rock, you know, the rock of Fela and and stuff like that, but man I you know, that was that was the crew back then for me was you know, when black moon first came who got the props I was just like, Man, I'm on this like I love this this this music I love the beat miners and like, every time that they drop something they like it's like the whole bootcamp click Like I always had a it was like it was to me it was like watching the like the like you how you follow the WWF and you see like all of your great tag teams getting together doing eight man tag teams, you know as a as a you see? You know, you have blackmoon And then you have Smith and Wesson, aka the cocoa brothers and then you had helter skelter and then you you had the original your original gun clappers. Oh, GCS just I used to love that stuff man. And I you know I understand the cultures evolve but

01:27:47.550 --> 01:27:50.670
that's the game face thank you for coming on man. Tell people what it yeah man

01:27:50.670 --> 01:28:16.260
So the show is called the baseline NBA podcast and so we asked you all you know if you love listening to conversations discussing you know the NBA, just go to at NBA baseline, my Twitter handle is at Gameface Li and my boy Warren show who I've co hosts and CO create the show with you can catch him at him at Shaw sports.

01:28:09.210 --> 01:28:50.430
NBA and yeah, man we do it every week. You know, catch us on Twitter on Instagram On Facebook. We also are aligned with 90 Media Group. So you know 90 Media Group man we just have a great collective cast of people who you know I'm saying have just go with a gamut of all kinds of topics culture music, entertainment, sports, you name it man like just some great individuals great people who put out really great content so if you ever interested in listening to you know I'm saying anything other than basketball then just go to www dot 90 media group.com

01:28:50.000 --> 01:29:02.720
dope man, Oscar Wilde said the smallest act of kindness is worth more than the grandest intention the culture go to the website of culture dot one.

01:28:58.609 --> 01:29:07.189
Shout out to our patreons aka the culture crew. We appreciate you for keeping us going. Thank you for tuning in y'all.

01:29:07.029 --> 01:29:43.569
[Pete Rock & CL Smooth - The Creator] It's time to dip-dive-dip, you might break a hip To the sound that's legit, I've come to make a hit I usually bust scratches with my brother C.L. Smooth But I decided to get wreck on this groove As I provide the slide, you're goin' on a ride I know the weather's nice, there's no need to play the outside Guess who's on the flyer, the man of your desire Pete Rock and C.L.

01:29:43.569 --> 01:29:57.100
Smooth, all the honey-dips admire Beats are rough and rugged, Pete Rock is the creator Now I'm bustin' raps while switchin' cross-faders Makin' sure my sound hits from here to Grenada Honey gave me skins, man, I told her friends I ate her But wait up, I save this subject for later But it's time to get wreck with the creator

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